Trying to decide between DA's

[NINaudio]

So I'm trying to decide between getting a PC and getting the Flex. My only experience with DA's was at last year's detail day when I borrowed Gus's PC for the day.

I'm guessing that I can use 5.5 or 6.5 inch pads with either machine, correct? What about the smaller pads if I need some spot correction in just a small area? My only experience has been with the CCS pads, does the Flex require using the VC pads?

And to the best of my knowledge:

Advantages of PC: price, I can get the machine and pads for the price of just the flex.

Advantages of Flex: (to the best of my knowledge) speedier details, can remove more defects.

 

[sscully]

I have an old PC ( liberated from the shop way back after it did it's fair share of scribing cabinets ) and a new 7424XP.

I just got a Flex this year, and it is great.

You have the 1 of the 2 cons for the Flex, cost.
The new LC backing plate kit is to make it 4", 5" and 6" pad options. If you plan on using a 3.25" or 3" pad, no good on the flex.

The Flex can do more work than a PC, but with the advent of the MF pads in 5", the PC will remove quite a bit of defect now.
The Optimum MF pads are great, I use them regularly on harder defects or when speed is key.
Opti has them in 3.25", 5.25" ( 5 something ) and a 6.25" ( or 6" ? ) version to match backing plates for the PC ( and flex / air DA ).
They work on the flex, but only the 5.25" and 6.25" version. The flex has a 4-3/8" ? factory plate option, but it is ~ 10.00 cheaper than the LC kit.

The flex will use any standard hook and loop pad.
The VC ones on the PB site are great, I just got them, it is a nice cross between the new hybird LC pads ( shape ) and the standard foam ( looks and feels standard to me ) of the regular line. Easy to clean vs what I am reading on the newer LC hybird pads ( more dense foam ).
I think I still like the black LC 7.5" VC pad for final polishing after correction, before LSP with the flex. That is just me. Pre flex I used a 5.5" flat black LC pad to do this, it just took a little longer.

If you are just getting into a DA, and are not planning production work ( for $$ ) I would suggest getting the PC with a 5" plate and maybe a 4" or 2-7/8" plate.
The B&S 3" spot pads are great ( like them better than the Hydro tech LC 3" pads ) and you can go 3.25" MF pads or 5.25" MF pads if need be for more serious correction work. The MF pads are in cutting and polishing form, so to compare them, call it LC yellow pad and LC white pad for work, but the normal DA has the guts to turn the MF pads, where the foam ones might stop rotation.

If money is not an option ( which is usually is ) get both. I have both, and still use both when doing detail work.

the other nice option on the PC is you can get brushes in the thread for it, to use on scrubbing carpeting & floor mats. I have the 6" Velcro one and it does not seem to work as well, keep peeling off when you lay into it on the flex.

So long story, slightly longer, you will get more defect correction done quicker with the Flex, but the PC has more versatility to it.

Hope this helps more than hurts, thanks for making it to the end of my verbal run on.

 

[NINaudio]

So would you say that something like this would be a good start to most of my needs if I went with a PC. Unfortunately $$$ is an issue, so I won't be getting both, it is either one or the other. LOL

http://www.autogeek.net/porter-cable-7424-kit.html

I would want to pick up a few more large pads for general work. When I used the PC at detail day I used it with 5.5 inch orange pads and it worked well on the places where I needed to spend time on some scratches.

Also, what is the best way to clean pads, do you wash by hand if you don't have that nifty (but kinda expensive) bucket cleaner thing?

 

[Poorboy]

that's way too much for stuff you don't need ... we have a PC in stock if you want to stop in ...

if money is even brought in to the conversation, stick with the PC ... durable, well tested, and you have some experience with it too.

when you don't have to worry about if you can afford the Flex, then you should add it to your collection ..

I prefer 6" backing plate with 6.5" on the PC ... smaller pads only get into smaller places they do not remove defects any better ...

I was just joking at Detail Fest about the machines and pads we used to use ... wool pads that were 12 & 16" wide and machines that weight 25+ pounds ... yet we were able to put out show and professional results with less than user friendly products ... today's options just give you an easier way to get results.

 

[NINaudio]

Steve, do you have the 6" backing plate for the PC as well? If I get the PC, then I'll have more money for Poorboy's products! =)

I suppose you're right, I had no issue with the pads I was using on my car then, so the 4" ones may be unnecessary.

 

[Poorboy]

yes, we have backing plates too ... the 4" pads we have are good for headlight and areas where the larger pads don't fit without rubbing something they shouldn't .. if the vehicle(s) you work on do not have areas like that, then you can always add a 3.75" backing plate later on.

 

[NINaudio]

OK, so what is a good starting pad setup: I was thinking along the lines of 2 orange, 3 white, and 3 black? Is the duospur cleaning tool something you use while the pads are on the machine? Do you need any type of cleaning solution? Or do I just use a little spray and wipe, is it good for that too? LOL

 

[Poorboy]

I don't think you need that many pads .. gee I'm a bad salesman ... I would do 1 orange, 1 white, 3 black , 1 red = 6 pack

the duo-spur is for on machine cleaning ... I have been known to wash my pads with my mf, they make great agitators, we also use the pad washer which you might have seen at Detail Weekend .. sometimes I just wash them out in the sink ... liquid detergent and some APC if they are very dirty does it for me ...

 

[NINaudio]

An honest salesman will get repeat business, the dishonest one won't. Well, they won't if the customer is smart.

ah, so you throw your pads and towels together in the washing machine then?

I saw the pad washer at detail weekend, but not so sure I'd want to drop the money on that just yet. I didn't use a red pad on detail weekend, what is that one for, how does it differ from the black pad?

 

[Poorboy]

yeah I have been known to just throw them in ... red is a little softer than black but not a whole lot ..

 

[sscully]

Wow that kit is over board. I guess a lot of people might blindly purchase that, if they did not ask first.

I know Steve likes the 6", but I like 5" for moderate defect removal on the PC and this gets you to 5.25" MF pads if you need serious work done.
The PC with the Opti MF pads would be speed 4 for the cutting Mf pad and speed 3 for the MF polishing pad. This would need a black follow up, which you could get away with 6" backing plate no question, but that would put you in for more $$ ( additional plate ).

I follow the clean the pad between sections process now ( never did before ).
I am using a pad washer for cleaning with the rotary, so I need 2 so one can dry while the other is being used.
Non pad washer, brush or blow out the pad with a compressor from the back side is another option.

Depending on defects on the paint you are working on is what pads you will want.
I just got a mixed 6 pad from the Ultrafinish site of the 5.5" Flex VC
1 Black, 1 Red, 2 White, 2 Orange.
Again, I am slightly different using the pad washer to clean the pads.
This is for moderate defect removal in my book.
General follow up polish to LSP, I still only use 1 black pad and 1 red pad ( and blue if I am using BH or WD in there ).

The pad washer, I kick myself for waiting until last year to get one ( I have the Grit Guard one, not the LC version ).
Worked well with the PC alone, now with the rotary, it is turbo charged. Clean them at 1500 RPM and sling the excess water off the pad ( after running it in the top of the pad washer ) in an empty bucket at 3000 RPM. They are usually dry by time I need to change out. I can say with 95% certainty that I am harder on my pads doing this, but they are clean when I am done with the detail.
The extra empty clean bucket to spin them dry is so if I fling one off, chances are it will land in the bottom of the bucket, not on the other side of the garage ( which means to the trash they go ).

Now keep in mind, I have maybe 1/8th the experience of Steve alone, add in Pockets and I am a rounding error in knowledge.:smt043

 

[Poorboy]

experience is not the real determining factor as this is not a science by any means ... it depends on what each person has learned and what each person is comfortable with using ..small or large, PC, Flex or Rotary ... my idea of this site is exactly this ... people having the opinions of many rather than one or a few. I would love for people who just read and agree to just say they agree. What this does is makes new viewers look at how different people detail and just a few new ideas to share with their own experiences or lack of. Jumping off soap box ..

 

[sscully]

experience is not the real determining factor as this is not a science by any means...<snip>...

But remember ( paraphrase, can't recall the exact quote ) 'With experience not age comes wisdom'

You and Pockets have the wisdom to know what to try and not to try with something, where I almost cost myself a new paint job on the sister in law's Mustang.
It was a Single stage 'hot iron' paint job that I was going to town with MF cutting pads and compound. Tom saved my bacon on that one.

..<snip>... ... it depends on what each person has learned and what each person is comfortable with using ..small or large, PC, Flex or Rotary ... my idea of this site is exactly this ... people having the opinions of many rather than one or a few. I would love for people who just read and agree to just say they agree. What this does is makes new viewers look at how different people detail and just a few new ideas to share with their own experiences or lack of. Jumping off soap box ..

Good point, just because I do better with defect removal on the PC with 4" and 5", and less so with 6" does not make it wrong, it makes it something that I cannot do. That is where maybe more experience would give me the ability to do it with the 6" pads.

Sure you have picked up I am a boot strap learning type, so that also makes my experience a bit ratty around the edges, where someone that is practiced in products and usage is bit more refined as it were.

good thing about this, NINaudio will have another data point for consideration, even if it is what not to do. I have been told at times, 'my purpose in life is to serve as a waring to others' :smt082

 

[Poorboy]

lol .. but consider that awd330- who is not a Pro and many people have met over the years at our Detail Weekends , she works mainly on her own cars and a few friends & has the best daily driver I have ever seen in my life.
Her experience comes from years of trial and error mainly with a PC .. believe me you can not find a swirl ... I would say proper maintenance is her key and something she learned from reading boards ... don't sell yourself short and I can tell you about cars I had to repaint at my body shop while I was learning the rotary way back when :shock:

 

[NINaudio]

Do the 5.5 and 6.5" pads use the same backing plate?

I know that kit may be a bit overkill, but it seems you get a lot for that $225. :smt119

 

[Poorboy]

Do the 5.5 and 6.5" pads use the same backing plate?

I know that kit may be a bit overkill, but it seems you get a lot for that $225. :smt119

only if you need them

 

[sscully]

Do the 5.5 and 6.5" pads use the same backing plate? ....<snip>...

A lot would say the 6.5" pad needs a 6" plate which is 5-3/4" in diameter, others have the margin of error thought where the 5" plate should be used.

I only take my 5" plate ( ~ 4-7/8" ) off to to put on the 3" ( ~ 2-7/8 ) plate anymore, for use with 3" pads. I still have a 4" plate for the 4" Orange LC flat pads for getting around items ( door handles, washer nozzles, etc ), but anymore I go with the Opti 3.25" MF pads instead. I can put PP on them, and get correction done quicker ( it is similar to having a 3.25" white LC pad ). The 4" LC pads would work for you until you feel the need or want to try MF pads. I got hooked on the MF pad crack from Opti this year for some reason.

....<snip>...I know that kit may be a bit overkill, but it seems you get a lot for that $225. :smt119

I would say a lot you don't need, and they are packaging up house brands with it, so they can fudge the price on a kit. Remember the 1st taste is always free.:mrgreen:

If you look at a pad set from the Ultrafinish site, you could go with the 5.5" Flex VC Mixed Kit for $54.95.
This gets you useful pad combo to work with in my opinion and Steve says the size is doable with experience on a PC.

Here is a picture of my old 5" plate ( use it for my hack pads now ) on my Flex and on the 5.5" PB Flex VC pads.

Add in the PC7424, a 5" plate a currently on sale DMT Gold 6 pack for $ 21.95 and you have a useful kit to start with.
If you find you need the smaller pads, you can go with the CCS 4" Mixed /5 $ 22.95 and get 2 Red, 2 White, and 2 Orange which is what you would need for getting around stuff ( not just 4' orange pads chances are a follow up polish and LSP are needed in the same area ) and the 3.5" DA Backing Plate for 12.95.

The plates on the Ultrafinish site are better plates than what the kit seems to have.
That URL still has what looks like the plates I bought a decade ago from PAC before they went under. They do work, don't get me wrong, but there has been better made like the ones on the Ultrafinish site.
The plates with the white center seem to flex easier. I do not have one from the kit above, so I am going by looks only in the picture and comparing it to what I have that looks similar to it.

So while you can get a lot with the kit, are you going to use it all, and are you going to have to buy additional items to get where you need to be.

Just a rambling thought on the topic, I am sure Wally or Bigsur ( others ) will add / correct my thoughts and the assumption I have going on.

 

[NINaudio]

Thanks sscully. So what is the difference between VC and CCS pads? I've only ever used the CCS pads.

 

[sscully]

The CCS pads LC says are made of a different foam than other pads, and have the dimples on the face of them.

The VC pads are a smooth foam ( like std LC flat pads ) face, and have a concave in the center of them ( and a hole in the center for Flex or Rotary use for the locating pin for centering them ).

Some really like the newer CCS pads ( have to say newer, as the newest are the hybird pads and the 2nd newest are the Hydro Tech pads ) over standard flat or VC pads.

If you are used to the CCS pads and like them, get a mixed set of the CCS pads instead. I was really pointing to a mixed set on the site, and really should have been more generic about it, rather then push something that you have not used, and what I use into the mix.

 

[NINaudio]

Thanks to both sscully and Steve. I'll be placing my order through PB later on today. =)